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Author [NL] [FR] [ES] [DE] [SE] [IT] [NO] [MY] Topic: The Science and Black Magic of Suspension Setup  (Read 80397 times)

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Offline Krisnow

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Re: The Science and Black Magic of Suspension Setup
« Reply #190 on: Feb 18, 2021, 12:20 AM »
Gustavo, I see your point.  But I cannot deny my direct experience either.  Not only the bike stopped front-diving, but it is not diving deep enough.  A little diving is a good thing as the front needs to give in when braking, to some extend.  Now, it is too stiff and ABS kicks in too fast even without braking hard; the Brembo callipers and radial MC give extraordinary braking power to this bike.  I would take some oil out, but the harder springs should arrive the next week so I will fit them in.
« Last Edit: Feb 18, 2021, 12:35 AM by Krisnow »

Offline Krisnow

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Re: The Science and Black Magic of Suspension Setup
« Reply #191 on: Feb 21, 2021, 04:24 AM »
Gustavo, since you are very knowledgeable on the subject of suspension could you be so kind and explain to me one thing that I cannot at all comprehend? 

as I mentioned in another thread, my mechanic broke the top of the Anreani cartridge where you lock the main top nut to the inner nut (not really his fault as the thing is made of very weak metal).  I got really annoyed, and decided to fit the V1000 forks instead.  the benefit is that I can use the Tokico monoblock callipers which i have spare and i already installed 310mm rotors. 

But that is besides the point; it will take some time for the forks to arrive.  the thing that i want to ask is this:  since the cartridge that broke was on the right side, I fitted for now back the OEM damping cartridge which has no spring (the andreani has spring)...but I left the Andreani left cartridge in (it is damping side in their system)...now, to my surprise the forks are much more firmer and no front diving, even though I took the excess of fork oil out from my left leg.  How can you explain that the suspension is now much firmer?  it kind of makes no sense to me!!!  also, I have now two forks with damping adjustment - what would be the effect?
« Last Edit: Feb 21, 2021, 04:27 AM by Krisnow »

Offline Gustavo

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Re: The Science and Black Magic of Suspension Setup
« Reply #192 on: Feb 21, 2021, 06:12 AM »
Let me see if I followed what the current setup is now - you are back to the stock suspension components, using the OEM spring?  Do you know what the spring rate is and what the Andreani springs were rated at?  I don't remember off the top of my head what the Mk3 stock spring rate is, but obviously, since it's a single spring, it should be significantly higher rate than what was in the earlier bikes I am more familiar with. 

Also, maybe the combination of the Andreani damping in the left leg and OEM in the right gives you much better low speed damping rates than OEM or the Andreani system on their own, which is what makes the bike dive less as you apply the brakes?   What type of oil are you using?  What does it feel like when you hit a sharp bump?   :notsure:

It's possible that you stumbled upon the best setup for a Mk3...   :211:

Gustavo
Always yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again - Ken Morton

Offline Krisnow

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Re: The Science and Black Magic of Suspension Setup
« Reply #193 on: Feb 21, 2021, 09:41 AM »
*Originally Posted by Gustavo [+]
Let me see if I followed what the current setup is now - you are back to the stock suspension components, using the OEM spring?  Do you know what the spring rate is and what the Andreani springs were rated at?  I don't remember off the top of my head what the Mk3 stock spring rate is, but obviously, since it's a single spring, it should be significantly higher rate than what was in the earlier bikes I am more familiar with. 

Also, maybe the combination of the Andreani damping in the left leg and OEM in the right gives you much better low speed damping rates than OEM or the Andreani system on their own, which is what makes the bike dive less as you apply the brakes?   What type of oil are you using?  What does it feel like when you hit a sharp bump?   :notsure:

It's possible that you stumbled upon the best setup for a Mk3...   :211:

Gustavo

sorry, it is all confusing.  I have on the left fork Adreani cartridge with relatively soft spring; it is meant to be the damping side.  on the right side, I reverted to the OEM set up with damping cartridge and NO spring.   So all I did is putting back the OEM right fork set up, while keeping the Andreani left fork cartridge.  And what puzzles me is that now the front suspension is much firmer, even that all what I did was to remove the right Andreani cartridge that had spring in it.  So how the forks can be stiffer now, if there is no more spring on the right side?  it is indeed a black magic of suspension :)

Offline Gustavo

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Re: The Science and Black Magic of Suspension Setup
« Reply #194 on: Feb 21, 2021, 07:23 PM »
Did you measure the rider sag with this new setup?  How does it compare to what you had with the original OEM setup or the Andreani setup with both springs in?

The reason you have more damping seems to be that the OEM damping is fairly firm, because it relies only on the right leg to do that.  In your current setup, you have that plus the Andreani damper in the left leg.  The question I had earlier which you didn't answer yet, was how does it feel over sharp bumps?  Did you put a zip-tie on one of the fork legs to see how much of the suspension travel you are using?  That would be interesting to see how the single Andreani spring copes with your weight/load.

Gustavo
« Last Edit: Feb 21, 2021, 07:24 PM by Gustavo »
Always yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again - Ken Morton

Offline Krisnow

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Re: The Science and Black Magic of Suspension Setup
« Reply #195 on: Feb 22, 2021, 01:15 AM »
thank you for the suggestions!  yes, I did forget to measure the riders sag.   I did a test ride going through some big potholes and the bike one time bottomed out.   so I increased the preload, but the riders sag is still too much, 68mm.  how can you explain that the front is too soft on the one hand, and yet it is not front diving?  also, you mentioned that now I have very strong damping, but isn't damping effecting only the speed with which the forks return, and not compression?  I do have a stronger spring that I could fit to the Anreani cartridge, but i am planning to fit forks from Versys 1000 so I might just wait for them. 

One more interesting thing.  Before with the OEM forks, in order to firm the suspension, I fitted a spring to the right damping leg.  And the thing is that it had no impact at all!  why is that?  I did something similar with my crf50 in the past, which has the same system in the right leg, and I fitted a spring from Racetech, which did help with the front diving. 

Offline Krisnow

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Re: The Science and Black Magic of Suspension Setup
« Reply #196 on: Feb 27, 2021, 06:05 PM »
by the way, i fitted the V1000 forks in the V650 and they are still too soft for my brakes; they basically suck. i have no idea what kawasaki is thinking.  for now, i fixed the issue in the same way as before - I added 110ml fork oil to each leg, and the bike is not front diving, plus there is not hydraulic lock.  air is the cheapest solution, or rather less air:)

Offline Krisnow

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Re: The Science and Black Magic of Suspension Setup
« Reply #197 on: Feb 28, 2021, 03:23 AM »
Gustavo, sorry to go over this subject again and again, but I have one more question that you maybe able to answer.  Let's say that I use double the viscosity oil in the forks, will it stiffen the compression?  From what I hear is that too thick oil does not work well with cartridge system.  Or, to use 20W in the left leg, and 10W in the damping leg?