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Author [NL] [FR] [ES] [DE] [SE] [IT] [NO] [MY] Topic: Is my regulator shot?  (Read 718 times)

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Offline Sparq

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Is my regulator shot?
« on: Jul 26, 2019, 01:29 AM »
So, my 2007 650 has eaten two batteries in three years - in both cases, battery voltage seemed ok or slightly low, but when tested, the batteries had lost most of their cranking amps.  I just replaced it with a new battery again a few days ago after the bike stranded me - was running fine, stopped for five minutes to take a drink, and the thing would not start again after that.  Once boosted it ran fine again all the way home, but immediately failed to start again once parked, and still failed after being left on the charger overnight.

After a ~2 hour ride tonight, I had a hard start after a brief stop (clock reset, but it turned over).  Once home, the bike seemed to be starting fine, but I broke out the multimeter and began testing. 

- Ignition off battery voltage is currently 11.5 V

- When started and revving, the voltage rises to ~11.8 V but no higher (a few days ago when tested cold, it was getting up into the high 13/low 14 volt range but only when revving very high, and not consistently).

- Stator leads test below one ohm resistance between each pair of the three contacts.  When running, AC voltage off the stator tests at 17.5V on two pairs and 16.5V on the third pair.

Had hoped it was just bad luck with the batteries, but something else seems weird here...
« Last Edit: Jul 26, 2019, 01:30 AM by Sparq »

Offline bgp

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Re: Is my regulator shot?
« Reply #1 on: Jul 26, 2019, 11:31 AM »
I don't think battery is dead, just not getting charged on motorcycle. Or not charged enough to get fully charged. Put it on Optimate to see if it accepts el. current.
Bikes: Original 2007 Versys and 2003 ZRX1200S

Online uralrob

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Re: Is my regulator shot?
« Reply #2 on: Jul 26, 2019, 12:33 PM »

 
 Sounds like your stator could be bad, Sparq, but first check that all the connectors are clean and making good contact. Also check ground connections. Not sure where they are for the charging system.

 I don't have the figures in front of me but yours seem low. The full test procedure is in the service manual and is not complicated. Nor is changing the stator.

 Also worth checking the regulator, especially the wires leading into the plug.

 Your batteries are probably dying from erratic charging and too heavy a demand when not fully charged.

 Rob.
Don't take Life too serious, it's not permanent.

Offline Sparq

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Re: Is my regulator shot?
« Reply #3 on: Jul 26, 2019, 12:43 PM »
Hmm, ok.  Based on the test procedure I had found (not from the manual), I thought the stator might have been ok, but perhaps not.  Will have to look up how to test the regulator/rectifier...

Offline InverterMan

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Re: Is my regulator shot?
« Reply #4 on: Aug 10, 2019, 01:49 AM »

Offline Maverick

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Re: Is my regulator shot?
« Reply #5 on: Aug 10, 2019, 07:56 AM »
Given the age of the bike and the cost of replacing batteries I'd get this and replace both.

https://tinyurl.com/y67c2vn8

I bought this a year ago and only used the stator (all that was needed) and it's going fine.
« Last Edit: Aug 10, 2019, 07:57 AM by Maverick »

Offline InverterMan

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Re: Is my regulator shot?
« Reply #6 on: Aug 10, 2019, 05:58 PM »
*Originally Posted by Maverick [+]
Given the age of the bike and the cost of replacing batteries I'd get this and replace both.

https://tinyurl.com/y67c2vn8

I bought this a year ago and only used the stator (all that was needed) and it's going fine.
I am going to point out several differences, one as to testing a stator. My test method was developed by me because I have been very involved in Induction technology and have developed simple but extremely accurate test methods that can't be duplicated, unless you are testing a stator on the bench using a LCR meter. I am a retired professional. The manual explains using a ohmmeter , yes this will work if your stator is completely burnt, I am going to stop there. Running the engine using your idle adjustment et at approximately 2000 RPM, you should be measuring around 24 to 28 VAC , and be within 1 VAC between phase measurements. If you had A-B 24VAC; B-C 17 VAC ; C-A 22 VAC. You have shorted turns on the B-C phase somewhere, increasing the RPM will cause a increase in current on the B-C phase, this will reduce the output available to the regulator, eventually and this could be hours or days, your stator will completely fail. Kawasaki makes motorcycles, my specialty was electrical; AC/DC drives, and large inverters, AC to DC , AC to AC from 30 KW up to 2.5 megawatt . There is a reason for me using the idle adjustment and the 2000 RPM, the test I describe should take no more than 10 minutes start to finish.As to using the Service manual testing, I doubt there is even 1% of members on this forum that own a low ohms digital meter, or a ducter , Why use a device that uses DC to find a AC problem. I challenge anyone out there to find a more accurate test unless you have removed the stator and own a LCR meter http://www.reedinstruments.com/product/reed-instruments-r5001-lcr-meter.
    Battery Failure / Shunt Regulator
I thought I should go a step further, the average member here figures the AGM battery fails , just replace it, what happens between new and failure. First the battery is a storage device. I am sure many have read to use a motorcycle charger, ( limits current to around 1 amp) , in the case of AGM , they tolerate high charge currents, however it is always best to keep the charge current under 4 amp when possible. Just remember the motorcycle is able to produce 330 watts at or above 3500 RPM, subtracting base load of roughly 170 watts =160 watts available or 11.2 amp at 14.2 VDC at full available output.
   Battery / Shunt so the shunt regulator starts to work at or above 14.5 to 15 VDC, what do I mean, below this voltage it is a simple 3 phase rectifier, changing AC to DC. Ask yourself which battery will fail first, one that never sees more than 14.3 VDC or one that continually sees up to 15 VDC? Second thing most don't understand, if your battery is lower than 12.6 VDC  after 2 hours sitting, it is a continuous load while riding at or above 3500 RPM and you will eventually cook the electrolyte out of the battery, and your amp hour capacity will diminish. So to complete the shunt regulator explanation, it starts to work between 14.5 and 15 VDC , that is it shunts or shorts to ground the difference in energy produced by the stator to maintain a VDC usually around 14.5 VDC. I have been using a series regulator since 2008, first on my 07 Versys and now on my 2015 Versys, my battery life runs between 6 and 7 years on a Yuasa agm battery.
  I don't expect anyone here to jump in and switch to a series regulator or even care about their stator, which I should mention that 90% of after market staors are Y connected and have roughly 60% of the copper found in the OEM delta stator. The OEM has two 18 gauge wires per phase, the Y has a single 18 gauge wire per phase, it will output full 330 watts , using 3 phase forumla 330 Watts divided by 14.2 VDC = 23.23 amp divided by root three 1.73 =13.43 amp per phase, or 13.4 amp on a single 18 gauge wire for the china Y connected or 13.4 amp per the delta two 18 gauge wires per line out equal to a single 15 gauge wire, FYI in Canada house wiring was a 14 gauge standard ( rated at 15 amp , now 12 gauge is used for most kitchen areas ), the gauges or circular mils doubles for every 3 wire gauges .
  My point is the china Y connected will output 330 watts but don't expect it to last as long as the OEM Delta , unless you switch to a series regulator , then expect the China stator to last as long or longer than the OEM .
  Ok I am leaving now, :biker1:

 



This is one of my old posts.
https://www.versys.co.uk/index.php/topic,19634.msg258754.html#msg258754

Offline Sparq

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Re: Is my regulator shot?
« Reply #7 on: Aug 19, 2019, 02:23 PM »
Wow, ok, lots to look in to here, thanks for all the insight.  Haven't had a chance to test much lately, but will do so.  My voltage tests on the stator were done at idle, which is set lower than 2000 RPM at the moment, so I'll have to fiddle with that and re-test.

In the meantime, I installed a voltage monitor so I could get an idea of what the system is doing while I ride.  It appears to be charging, but not quite enough to keep up, resulting in a very slow drain on the battery - I have been able to ride several days in a row, for 2-3 hours each day, without starting issues, but the voltage tests I have done are a little lower each time once parked, until I chicken out and "top up" with a charger.  It also sort of appears that my monitor readouts are higher at the beginning of a ride than they are after a couple hours (say, 13.5-14.1 volts while cruising at ~5000-6000 RPM, vs low to mid 12s after I've been riding for an hour or two).

Just as some background, I have replaced the stator once before, when I incorrectly believed the factory unit had gone bad (turned out to be the battery itself) - the chinese ebay replacement stator burned out in less than two weeks, and I ended up putting the factory unit back in at that time, which has been fine for at lease a couple more years.

Offline InverterMan

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Re: Is my regulator shot?
« Reply #8 on: Aug 19, 2019, 04:57 PM »
As to RPM, the 2000 RPM is a rough setting, but crucial as to the amount of available magnetic field strength and imperative to use the idle screw adjustment, 1900 RPM or 2100 RPM doesn't matter, what matters is all voltages measured are done at the same RPM and within minutes of each other, before the fan runs .


Somewhat related as to the shunt regulator is battery life. Something many don't understand. I was recently buying a led brake light used on trailers as I have a gearbrake module and don't wish to change any of my other add ons. I was using our Toyota car, I had a Fluke 189 meter with me and wanted to test this at the store , naturally measuring the current is only useful if you also measure the voltage. I was surprised at the 13.2 VDC at idle and the 13.6 VDC above idle. I wasn't going to bring my scope into the picture but it is related, I have a 4 amp hour battery, so my fast charge puts out 1 amp, which means I need four hours for full charge, if I charge within the scope it takes 24 hours for full charge, using the same 1 amp output adapter, this may be too in depth but here I go, in the case of the scope , it is current limiting so that even with a dead battery it can function, however some use a reduced voltage for charging, which can lead to a reduced capacity / amp hour . Here is the problem, we have a 10 amp hour battery, say starting uses 20 amp for 1 minute = .333 amp hour, which means you need to charge a minimum of 0.3 amp for 1 hour minimum. If you charge below 13.2VDC , it could take several hours to charge the battery, repeating this over a week or more your 10 amp hour battery may be closer to 6 amp hour.
  Now the other thing that can happen is over charging, which can be a common problem with the shunt regulator, I have tested several Kawasaki shunt regulator, 2007 , 2008 and 2015, all of them produced a minimum 14.5 VDC and all of them went as high as 15.1 VDC before starting to work /shunt excess voltage ( the shunt is a simple 3 phase rectifier with a shunt circuit to ground, activated by over voltage, a slow increase will produce 15.1 VDC before shunting, which means you could be at 14.9 volts all day, unless you momentarily hit the switch on VDC level, sort of a cut in VDC and a drop out VDC wihch would be 14.4 to 14.5 VDC).
  What happens is between the heat of the motor and excess charge voltage , the electrolyte evaporates and your amp /HR capacity diminishes. Using a series regulator, it starts working the instant your stator produces power, and typical volts DC is 14.2 maximum, which explains why my Yuasa batteries last 5 to 6 years on the Kawsaki Versys ( my 07 lasted 6 years and my 2015 is still on the OEM battery)
  This is a very basic explanation, many other factors but in reality the worst component of the Versys is the regulator, from whatt I am seeing it looks like the 2017 1000 ninja uses a series regulator, so Kawasaki is improving things.
« Last Edit: Aug 19, 2019, 05:01 PM by InverterMan »