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Online whiskydave

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Re: Time for new tyres
« Reply #10 on: Sep 10, 2019, 02:01 PM »
*Originally Posted by Davo [+]
What's wrong with the pilot road 4, I've never had an issue with them!
I'm on PR 5's and they are great. Having said that the BT023's I had on my Versys were spot on as well. As said above there's not many bad tyres out there now.  :002:

Offline kevin..in

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Re: Time for new tyres
« Reply #11 on: Sep 10, 2019, 04:30 PM »
*Originally Posted by Davo [+]
What's wrong with the pilot road 4, I've never had an issue with them!
Always seemed to want to tie the bike in a knot every time you crossed a white line or over banding, others have said the same thing
Glad they are now gone

Offline Graeme

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Re: Time for new tyres
« Reply #12 on: Sep 10, 2019, 06:10 PM »
Thanks for all your thoughts (so far). Sounds like the BT023s might fit the bill in terms of value as well as quality. Will catch up with the guy at my usual place next week to see what he can do.
Graeme

Offline 100milesaway

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Re: Time for new tyres
« Reply #13 on: Sep 10, 2019, 06:21 PM »
Further to the above.  I had 4s on my GTR1400, and they were awful, can't say that they didn't do the job regards sticking to the road.

But, the shocking wear rate was grim, and they didn't even wear like any normal tyre that I had ever had before . They had lumps and ridges appear, all across the tread pattern. Which in turn, made the bike steer like a flock of sheep.

I don't think that you need to spend on the latest rubber, there are lots of last generation tyres that are still brand new, but old design, that will be more than capable of handling anything that a 70 bhp bike, and a good enthusiastic rider, in normal conditions can throw at it.

I can only recommend Avon Storm 3D XMs. Great tyre, does everything that I ask, they cost 160 quid a pair. And will normally do 8 to 10 thousand miles. :152:

What would you rather be, or a wasp?

Offline Gustavo

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Re: Time for new tyres
« Reply #14 on: Sep 10, 2019, 08:50 PM »
*Originally Posted by Shandy [+]
However, I don't agree sports-adventure tyres are better than sports touring tyres  :182:

Any adventure 'styled' tyre will always compromise some of it's road performance for style and / or claimed off road ability. and no, bigger tread does not mean better grip on the road! Bigger blocks are better for moving mud but actually give less surface contact patch on the road.

sports touring tyres are designed for the road and only the road. Anything that claims to have even 10% off road ability is 10% less for the road.


These are typical adventure-touring tire:





The deeper tread gives better evacuation of water when riding on wet roads.  Deeper tread also gives you longer life before you reach the wear bars and more importantly, before those sipes aren't deep enough to evacuate water effectively.  The only real penalty is in added weight - there is no free lunch, more rubber weighs more, so you can expect the tires to weigh about 0.5-1 kg more for equivalent size.  As I mentioned earlier, the only way to truly compare tires is to do a test that runs all the tires in question through the same test under the same conditions.  What Ryan from Fortnine does is entertaining, sometimes informative, but it's not tire testing.  He bases his reviews on PR material and infomercials from the manufacturers.  It's great for explaining to someone who don't know a steel belt from a valve stem what tires do and how they are built but that's not enough to sort tires that are close anyway and figure out which one would be better for your use.

True tire tests show that 90/10 adventure-touring tires give very little to nothing on dry roads and the better designs excel in the wet to the point that the Motorrad guys were amazed by the available performance.  They consistently scored better than sport-touring tires tested that same year.

We can debate different feel and behavior of tires until the cow come home.  Some people like more rounded profiles, others like the tires to be more triangular and fall into a curve faster.  That's definitely a personal preference and would make you choose one tire over another.  But if you want to pick a tire that performs better too, you can get an unbiased answer from the Motorrad link I posted above. 

Gustavo


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Online Shandy

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Re: Time for new tyres
« Reply #15 on: Sep 14, 2019, 06:13 PM »
Gustavo,

You're absolutely right, different feel and behaviors of tyres, can be debated forever. It's all a case of personal taste, feel, experience and comfort.

Sorry, but I couldn't find the comparison test you were referring too, following your link, I suspect it's a problem with Google translate. But Motorrad looks like a typical motorcycle publication, just like MCN or Ride, etc... even FortNine. Like you said there all biased in one way or another. They will each try and emulate the same test in a similar way and try and call it 'new' each will have their own variant or opinion about what makes their test better or fairer or more detailed than anyone else. If you dig around enough, you'll probably find contradicting reviews from each magazine from previous years. The trouble is, they have to keep selling us copies year on year, and there's only so many was you can say that tyre's are round, black and sticky  :lostit:

the only way to be sure what one's are best for you are by trying them. I appreciate that very few people have the time or money (me included) to spend testing loads of tyres. thats where magazine tests and so forth come into play, but each should be taken with a pinch of salt.
i would consider the top three from the category that suits you, your riding style and bike and then listen to what real bikers on somewhere like this friendly forum  :2: :152: have to say and make an informed decision from there. That includes previous generations of the same tyre's. You'll find riders tend to prefer the way one manufacturer's tyre feels over another. This is because each one has it's own slightly different manufacturing process's and preferences. 'Feel' often comes down to how one company design and manufacture their carcass's more than tyre tread depth, style or pattern. Some will be inherently 'harder'or 'softer' than others, different rubber compound formulas and even the silicone used to name but a few.

The good thing these days is that you are very unlikely to come across a 'bad' tyre. Luckily, each manufacturer has mastered their trade so well now, that we are probably at the pinnacle of tyre design and providing you purchase something from one of the leading brands, you can't really go wrong.

I don't really agree that more rubber = greater longevity. Just because you've got deeper tread patterns and further to the wear markers, you can still square off the tyre just as quick and arguably quicker on some brands because some adventure tyres lack the in depth dual compound technologies. In addition, If you we're using them for their intended dual purpose and green laneing, then the deeper sypes are there deliberately to help move mud and and find grip on loose surfaces. Therefore you'd want to replace them long before they reached minimum 'legal' tyre tread depth.

The pictures you embedded are of Pirelli Scorpion Trail's and Continental Trail Attack's if I'm not wrong?
Ironically, the Pirelli Scorpions are what sparked my interest in tyre technology somewhat. the used to become fitted as standard on Triumph Tiger 800's (no idea if they still are, in fact I think they moved to more road biased Metzler's on the road based XR model's). I Bought one new in 2014 and after being run in, I spent the next 1000 miles touring through France and into Germany to the Black forest. They performed reasonably well, or at least I got home without incident. However, before I had clocked up 3000 miles I was back in France, exploring the Somme region with a different group of riders and had a couple of unexpected  slides, followed by a truly terrifying moment on a tight hairpin bend where the rear lost grip on some loose road surface and nearly sent me over the edge!   :5: when we stopped, I had a look and a tyre novice then, someone pointed out that despite plenty of tread left my tyres we're squared right off and explained the 'step' I had been feeling.
I have never bought Pirelli's since and when I got home, I replaced them with Michellin PR4's and never looked back.

Former bikes, had Bridgestone BT023's just because they felt right and harps back to where we agree about personal taste. But I didn't know why they performed so well then, even now I'd happily stick a set on tomorrow. I've just now become used to the way the Michellin feels and when she was written off, my Z1000SX was wearing a very nice pair of Michellin Road 5's.

I don't know much about the Continental tyres, but I have been led to believe that they do perform very well on the right machine, but i think they have a bit more road bias than the Pirelli's maybe a true 90%/10% as opposed to the Pirelli's 80%/10% and 10% for 'style'


I understand that you probably have far more experience than I do and I will openly admit that I am still learning but this information is based on the knowledge and experience I have gathered so far. I really don't agree with dual purpose tyres for solely road use, but I can admit that my opinion is not fact and only my opinion.

i also wish to respect the fact that you have been around on here a lot longer than i have and don't want to offend, I hope I haven't  :31:

I think we are both of the same opinion that personal taste and experience is the biggest factor to consider. Otherwise, can we agree to disagree?? After all, if we all had the same opinion this forum would be REALLY boring  :008:


Graeme, Keep us updated with what you eventually decide on and how you get on with them  :028:


Adam.
A Motorcycle Is For Life, Not Just Sunny Days <iframe width="154" height="205" src="https://w2.countingdownto.com/2611567" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Offline Gustavo

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Re: Time for new tyres
« Reply #16 on: Sep 15, 2019, 09:26 PM »
Here is the direct link to the adv-touring tire test on the Motorrad site:

https://www.motorradonline.de/zubehoer/strassenreifen-2019-fuer-grosse-reiseenduros-im-test-landstrassen-alltags-naesse-und-verschleisstest/

Note that the online version is a summary of the test.  If you pay the fee for the PDF (or buy the magazine) there is a lot more detail that isn't on the free online summary.  Motorrad tire tests are not like everyone else's.  When they do an intro test, yes it's probably similar to every body else - fly to exotic location (preferably in winter, when it's freezing at home), get bike with new tires from manufacturer, run around cool roads/scenery for two days, write glowing report to justify them spending the money on you... 

Their comparison tests aren't like that.  They take the tires being compared on the same days to a test track and do laps under dry and wet conditions.  I remember seeing a supersport tire test video once, the test riders weren't even told which tire they had on at any given session. Then they run them on identical bikes on different trips, including a tour that runs thousands of km to test wear, so you can compare how tires wear under the same conditions.  Nobody else does that.  That's why their results are meaningful when other's aren't.

I think the Scorpion Trails you had in 2014 were the first version.  I had them on the Versys, I agree, they weren't very good.  Didn't buy another set.  The Scorpion Trail II was introduced late in 2015 as a new version for 2016 and is a completely different tire.  Don't let the common family name mislead you, same as Tourances today aren't the same as Tourances I used 15 years ago, nor are Anakees or Pilot Roads from Michelin the same tire throughout their different versions.

Gustavo


Always yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again - Ken Morton

Online Wal

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Re: Time for new tyres
« Reply #17 on: Sep 15, 2019, 10:41 PM »
Tourance Next on my 2018 Tiger XR (road) i cant feel any difference whatsoever between them and more "road" orientated tyres, the compound counts as well as the tread pattern , they wouldn't fit 90/10 tyres to Multistrada with 150hp or BMW ADV bike with 165hp, or 1200 Triumph etc etc,  if grip was compromised......try following a good rider on a GS 1200 to learn about grip...skinny 21ins front and all.....

and.... when i leave my house i can cut straight across the fields for half a mile to the tarmac..... :4: :015:

Offline Maverick

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Re: Time for new tyres
« Reply #18 on: Sep 16, 2019, 06:40 AM »
Best tyre for me is Michelin Pilot Road series, however if you want a budget tyre that works well on the Versys either Bridgestone BT-023 or BT-016. The 16's are supposed to be a sportier tyre but on my ZRX1200 lasted 16,000 km and still had a thousand or 2 km left in them. I replaced them because they were getting a bit squared off (too many straight lines)
I have run the stock Dunlops, PR2's, Angel GT's, PR4's and BT-023's on the Versys and for the price I'd say the Bridgestones.
As someone else said all the major players make good tyres.

Offline Galwayversys

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Re: Time for new tyres
« Reply #19 on: Sep 16, 2019, 08:50 AM »
*Originally Posted by Graeme [+]
Thanks for all your thoughts (so far). Sounds like the BT023s might fit the bill in terms of value as well as quality. Will catch up with the guy at my usual place next week to see what he can do.
Graeme

Granted every bike is different, here's my experience:
- PR4: ran three sets on Ducati Multistrada 1100. I got 9k kms from every rear, and about 12 from every front. Found them great in the wet, good in the dry, and they gave good performance until end of life (or thread). Just fitted a set for the Versys to replace BT 023s
- BT023: just took them off the Versys after about 15K kms (thread is still legal front and back, if just barely).

Found them great in the dry and in the wet, not quite to PR4 levels. Performance dropped sharply at the end of life, for the last 3-4K kms the rear spun up in the wet and locked up very easily under braking in dry conditions. I would have used them again, but the difference in price to PR4s was just 40, so I switched.
- RoadTec 01: I have them on the Ducati for the last 5k kms or so, can't fault them. Pricey, but better than PR4s in every respect and in every condition. Very confidence inspiring in the wet

My tuppence